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[jj]

I guess I don't get it oogie. But I'll tell you one thing, glass buildings don't attract anything but birds. Which get killed. I lived most of my life in Toronto and never once heard anyone comment on how the glass buildings would attract people. They were built to house people. You can do the same in hrm if that's what turns your crank, just don't tear down the assets you already have. Supplement those assets. In the end I don't really care because I'm fortunate enough not to live there but I think the people of hrm should be thankful they still have something worth saving despite the short sighted naysayers.

[Be the change]

... the people of hrm should be thankful they still have something worth saving despite the short sighted naysayers.

You're quite right about that, jj!

Thing is, there doesn't appear to be much of a balance and the situation is nuts. It seems to me that the developer has worked within the letter of the law but now, the rules of the game have changed on him. The reality is that he has a demolition permit in one hand, and a very good argument that these buildings are not actually as old as is claimed (the internal parts, as I understand it). He has proposed something that saves the look and feel of the area and also builds new office space (when I did some digging, I found a comment that glass was being used in this project because it is one of the least intrusive building materials. I think the Heritage people will only succeed in seeing a complete loss of these buildings if they can't work better with people. Personally, I will feel a loss if these buildings are torn down completely, it is a lovely section of town. But the way the developer is being treated isn't right and he does own this land and has demonstrated an ability to maintain other properties he has developed that are historic. I just don't know how anyone can work with these people or how any person or entity can create a plan and be able to go through with it when the rules of the game keep changing. There's another article in the Herald today that indicated that probably 3 of the 5 new councillors that were just elected would probably have voted in favour of the project. I think this is just part of council being out of control and the leadership void that persists in the Mayor's office, sadly.

Also, I don't know if you know or not but a beautiful historic church just a couple of blocks away (next to Staples in downtown) was just demolished recently. No one said too much about that.

[MacDuff]

Not just the glass buildings, but the other opportunities they attract, as well as other developments like markets, social places, sporting facilities, etc.

You really don't get it do you?

They are certainly not staying as a result of all this so called heritage we have.

All I can tell you Oogie, is that most of my friends, acquaintances and family come to Halifax Not to see the tall buildings. They come in spite of them. They like the friendlier feel of Halifax. In my professional life, most of the people who come to work and study at the Universities, comes here because of the lifestyle. Many of them choose to stay here because of that lifestyle. My colleagues specifically mention the fact that Halifax protects their roots. They give examples of how the places they come from have totally destroyed their heritage. Sticking a 9 story dildo, inside the facade of a historic building is not preserving anything. It is not just the outside of buildings that are important.

As I have said in the past. I have never had anyone ask me to show them the Purdy's wharf complex or the Green Frog. On the other hand many people ask about the Citadel or Province House. It is easy to direct anyone to Province House. You just need to tell people that it is in the centre of all of those ugly tall buildings.

I am pro development, but not at the sake of our history. Yes, we do not need to preserve every bordello in old Halifax, but there is much more than old clap traps.

[oogie]

Well, all I have to say is that the status quo approach to heritage preservation has certainly not moved us anywhere. Hell, we only just got Sunday Shopping, and I am sure everyone remembers how heated a debate that was.

It is all indicative of the antiquated approach that the province and people has taken over the last few decades, and it's gotten us no where.

[mr. mom]

 I came to halifax because I needed a job and I had a place to stay, could have easily have been toronto or any other city.  I like the old buildings but they sure as hell are not the reason I stayed, nor is the "feel".  It was closer to home than toronto was and had a better night life, ie bars did not shut down at midnight.  I made friends at work and turned the job into a bit of a career, then I met and married someone from the area, it is really her home more than mine but I have accepted the place as home and am raising a family, but if this place starts dying and it gets harder to stay, I will tell my wife at that time that we should leave.  There is no feel that holds me here, it is a nice place but it does not captivate me.

[Gravitas]

I was to Toronto just the other week actually. It is an alive, vibrant, and active city. Buildings on the change constantly, and yet they still have the old city structures through out.

Meanwhile back in Halifax, we are left with condemned buildings and empty lots as a city scape? Nice. 

And there are those that  wonder why we can't keep our youth in the region and why they end up in places like Toronto and points west...

Not just the glass buildings, but the other opportunities they attract, as well as other developments like markets, social places, sporting facilities, etc.

You really don't get it do you?

They are certainly not staying as a result of all this so called heritage we have.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I get so sick of the bad rap that Toronto gets here. Yes, it's big. Yes, the traffic is bad. But there are a lot of things I miss about Toronto, and it's not the tall buildings ... but the other things that come along with allowing your economy to grow (which in turn results in taller buildings). It's the cultural opportunities. It's a museum that's more than a musty closet. Stores that have more selection than the basics. Pro sports. Concerts by international acts. An art gallery that attracts works that otherwise you can only see in Paris or London. More options for Saturday nights than going out drinking. Main streets that feel alive because there are actual people walking on them.

And I can see the attack coming: No, I don't want to move back, thanks. And I also don't think Halifax needs to turn into Toronto. But I do think that it is possible to have some of the lifestyle options that Toronto offers, if we are willing to accept and embrace progress here. Fighting to keep Halifax as small and quaint will not do this.

[GreyEyes]

It's the cultural opportunities. It's a museum that's more than a musty closet. Stores that have more selection than the basics. Pro sports. Concerts by international acts. An art gallery that attracts works that otherwise you can only see in Paris or London. More options for Saturday nights than going out drinking. Main streets that feel alive because there are actual people walking on them.

You've managed to put int words what I long for in Halifax/Dartmouth. A decent museum...I remember with such fondness the museum in Saint John. Stores that sell more than just the same old same old. An art gallery...a world class art gallery...I'd kill for that. An aquarium.

I so agree with you Gravitas...

[jj]

I was to Toronto just the other week actually. It is an alive, vibrant, and active city. Buildings on the change constantly, and yet they still have the old city structures through out.

Meanwhile back in Halifax, we are left with condemned buildings and empty lots as a city scape? Nice. 

And there are those that  wonder why we can't keep our youth in the region and why they end up in places like Toronto and points west...

Not just the glass buildings, but the other opportunities they attract, as well as other developments like markets, social places, sporting facilities, etc.

You really don't get it do you?

They are certainly not staying as a result of all this so called heritage we have.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I get so sick of the bad rap that Toronto gets here. Yes, it's big. Yes, the traffic is bad. But there are a lot of things I miss about Toronto, and it's not the tall buildings ... but the other things that come along with allowing your economy to grow (which in turn results in taller buildings). It's the cultural opportunities. It's a museum that's more than a musty closet. Stores that have more selection than the basics. Pro sports. Concerts by international acts. An art gallery that attracts works that otherwise you can only see in Paris or London. More options for Saturday nights than going out drinking. Main streets that feel alive because there are actual people walking on them.

And I can see the attack coming: No, I don't want to move back, thanks. And I also don't think Halifax needs to turn into Toronto. But I do think that it is possible to have some of the lifestyle options that Toronto offers, if we are willing to accept and embrace progress here. Fighting to keep Halifax as small and quaint will not do this.

I couldn't agree more about Toronto. It is a fabulous place. Many of the things you mention come with population and wealth, neither of which is in great supply in hrm. You can't turn hrm into a mini Toronto overnight, glass towers or not. You won't have entertainment here like you do there until you can afford to support it. There are lots of reasons why hrm will never be another Toronto, at least not in our lifetime. There is no need to try to be that, concentrate on what you have here and improve that. One of the things you have is great architecture, don't plow it all under for the sake of a few glass towers. As MacDuff says, I think it was him, why can't some of this stuff be built out in the burbs? Or some of the empty lots you so often mention.

[oogie]

An aquarium.

Stop by BIO sometime next summer.

Not quite Sea World or the Tornto/Vancouver aquarim, but active marine life none the less :)

[GreyEyes]

An aquarium.

Stop by BIO sometime next summer.

Not quite Sea World or the Tornto/Vancouver aquarim, but active marine life none the less :)

I just might take you up on that Oogie. Will you give me a personal tour?

[kp]

You can't turn hrm into a mini Toronto overnight, glass towers or not. You won't have entertainment here like you do there until you can afford to support it. There are lots of reasons why hrm will never be another Toronto, at least not in our lifetime. There is no need to try to be that, concentrate on what you have here and improve that. One of the things you have is great architecture, don't plow it all under for the sake of a few glass towers. As MacDuff says, I think it was him, why can't some of this stuff be built out in the burbs? Or some of the empty lots you so often mention.

JJ, you need to re-read what you just wrote. Let me spell it out for you:

1. Nobody but nobody is arguing to turn downtown Halifax into Toronto. That's the straw man the Heritage Trust always is guaranteed to throw into their arguments against anything new. It's beyond absurd but it seems to resonate with people -- mostly those, I suspect, who have never been to Toronto.

2. "Concentrate on what you have and improve that", you write. That is EXACTLY what Armour group proposed to do with these buildings. They are decrepit, run down, rabbit warrens that are not economical to restore as is. So Armour proposes to do what they did with Founders Square and Historic Properties -- to retain the old exteriors, only fixed up and renewed for another 100 years, and building a modern interior that can attract rents that will make it economical. Ever been in Founders square? It's nice. It looks old on the outside but is modern and efficient inside. It's a fine development. What's wrong with that?

3. This is not a "tower", for god's sake. It's  a stubby 9-storey building set inside the existing footprint. From street level you won't even notice it, just like you don't notice the upper reaches of Founder's. The architecture you seem to love so much from the existing buildings is retained. But by turning it down, Kouncil has pretty much guaranteed that in about 15 months it will be one of those empty lots you refer to. Smart move. Then you can get another 1881 Hollis or similar tower -- a true tower -- built there. Hope that makes you happy.

The pigheadedness of our Kouncillors and some members of the Flat Earth Society around these parts never ceases to amaze.

[oogie]

An aquarium.

Stop by BIO sometime next summer.

Not quite Sea World or the Tornto/Vancouver aquarim, but active marine life none the less :)

I just might take you up on that Oogie. Will you give me a personal tour?

Sure, or I can organize one of the official tour guides - they know more about the biologies than I.

[jj]

to be honest kp I'm not even referring specifically to this decision. It just seems that every such decision to turn down a project is met with the same resistance. As you pointed out this may well have been a great project perfectly suited to all the guidelines and so forth.

[hfx_chris]

Bring the GoC buildings over here to the BIO campus and Shannon Park.

Isn't that the plan? To build a big campus somewhere in the BIO/Shannon Park area for government offices. I thought I heard DFO would be moving out of Marine House, and Environment Canada out of Queen Square. This of course disappointed me. I enjoyed working in downtown Dartmouth, despite the negativity about parts of it, it really is a good place to work. Everything you want is within a 5 minute walk, from drug stores, library, many restaurants and places to get food. Walk across the street and you're in the ferry terminal park where you can sit on a bench eating your lunch in the sun, watching the ships go by. I ate my lunch there many, many times. Do you have opportunities like that at Shannon Park?
But then I heard that PWGSC is renewing the lease on EC's space in Queen Square for a number of years, so I guess I shall enjoy working in downtown Dartmouth again, if I ever work there again that is...

[hfx_chris]

The Heritage Trust are just doing a job that needs to be done. yes, they go to extremes sometime, but I would rather have them here. The alternative would be to be like Toronto.

Good God. The most over-used and inaccurate statement ever to be thrown up by the anti-development crowd. I don't think you're anti-development per se, but it is one of their arguments, and you fell right into it.
That's right, Halifax is right there on the edge, teetering back and forth on the brink, one more development over 10 stories and we're Toronto. Thank God the Heritage Trust is there to stop that.

So, I see, it's the glass buildings that is the allure for our young people. Oogie, you just cannot seriously believe what you wrote.

I find them alluring, and I'm a young people. So, I for one believe what Oogie wrote.

...but I think the people of hrm should be thankful they still have something worth saving despite the short sighted naysayers.

Absolutely. I just don't understand why heritage and the modern can't coexist as one. The HT claims building a pair of office buildings on a vacant lot formerly occupied by a run down parkade (which had a scuzzy gas station in it no less) will destroy the historic feel of the area because it blocks a bit of the view from Citadel Hill of the Imperial Oil refinery in Woodside. How can you support logic like that!? Personally I think the idea of seeing the tops of office buildings (the new) while standing on top of the ramparts at Citadel Hill (the old) with the water shimmering between the buildings makes for a beautiful contrast, and a stunning view.